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	<title>Comments on: Flash Storage and Servers</title>
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		<title>By: etbe</title>
		<link>http://etbe.coker.com.au/2008/11/26/flash-storage-and-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-17158</link>
		<dc:creator>etbe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://etbe.coker.com.au/?p=948#comment-17158</guid>
		<description>http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/SearchDetail.asp?productID=24839
http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/SearchDetail.asp?productID=24505

The above URLs are for $15 devices that allow connecting a SD card to an IDE bus or a CF card to a SATA bus.

http://etbe.coker.com.au/2008/01/24/ide-dma-and-flash/

I&#039;ve used a card similar to the IDE to SD one before and had some issues with it (documented at the above URL).  Also performance was lower than I expected (although adequate for the purpose of the machine).

The CF to SATA device might be OK, but would use a precious SATA port.

Raymond:  That&#039;s interesting to know.  At the moment I have no plans to buy Dell rack-mount servers so it&#039;s only a matter of curiosity.  If Dell starts doing such things in their tower servers then I&#039;ll be interested (I expect to deploy a few of them in the near future).

Les: I have heard some bad reports about the reliability of USB for a long-term connection.  Apparently USB is good for what it&#039;s designed for (rugged external connections) but not so good if you want to replace Ethernet or anything else that has semi-permanent connections.  Also I&#039;m very concerned about the reliability of external parts, too many idiots gain access to server rooms.

Pants: Solid state storage has vastly different failure modes to moving storage, and thus different methods can be used to protect it.  So if you were paranoid you could have the data stored twice on the same flash module (failure of an entire module is a lot less likely than failure of an entire hard disk).

Flash has been used for the BIOS on most motherboards for more than 10 years.  It seems that motherboard failure is pretty rare, I&#039;ve got a bunch of broken hard drives from machines I maintain, a heap of machines with broken PSUs, while motherboard problems are very rare.  Of the small number of failed motherboards, most of them seem related to cracks from inserting expansion cards.  Also for a lot of consumer electronics gear (mobile phones, PDAs, Netbooks, and probably TVs and VCRs) you have flash soldered on to the motherboard.  The reliability of such devices seems at least equal to that of PCs.

Matt: Long term storage of USB attached hard disks should be pretty good.  Long term storage on cheap USB flash devices is probably a bad idea.  I don&#039;t know of any good research on this matter, but I have noticed that on a quiet day at your local electronics store you can ask the staff which brands of USB device tend to be returned and which don&#039;t.  With some brands it seems common for them to lose data before the customer loses the receipt.</description>
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<a href="http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/SearchDetail.asp?productID=24505" rel="nofollow">http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/SearchDetail.asp?productID=24505</a></p>
<p>The above URLs are for $15 devices that allow connecting a SD card to an IDE bus or a CF card to a SATA bus.</p>
<p><a href="http://etbe.coker.com.au/2008/01/24/ide-dma-and-flash/" rel="nofollow">http://etbe.coker.com.au/2008/01/24/ide-dma-and-flash/</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;ve used a card similar to the IDE to SD one before and had some issues with it (documented at the above URL).  Also performance was lower than I expected (although adequate for the purpose of the machine).</p>
<p>The CF to SATA device might be OK, but would use a precious SATA port.</p>
<p>Raymond:  That&#8217;s interesting to know.  At the moment I have no plans to buy Dell rack-mount servers so it&#8217;s only a matter of curiosity.  If Dell starts doing such things in their tower servers then I&#8217;ll be interested (I expect to deploy a few of them in the near future).</p>
<p>Les: I have heard some bad reports about the reliability of USB for a long-term connection.  Apparently USB is good for what it&#8217;s designed for (rugged external connections) but not so good if you want to replace Ethernet or anything else that has semi-permanent connections.  Also I&#8217;m very concerned about the reliability of external parts, too many idiots gain access to server rooms.</p>
<p>Pants: Solid state storage has vastly different failure modes to moving storage, and thus different methods can be used to protect it.  So if you were paranoid you could have the data stored twice on the same flash module (failure of an entire module is a lot less likely than failure of an entire hard disk).</p>
<p>Flash has been used for the BIOS on most motherboards for more than 10 years.  It seems that motherboard failure is pretty rare, I&#8217;ve got a bunch of broken hard drives from machines I maintain, a heap of machines with broken PSUs, while motherboard problems are very rare.  Of the small number of failed motherboards, most of them seem related to cracks from inserting expansion cards.  Also for a lot of consumer electronics gear (mobile phones, PDAs, Netbooks, and probably TVs and VCRs) you have flash soldered on to the motherboard.  The reliability of such devices seems at least equal to that of PCs.</p>
<p>Matt: Long term storage of USB attached hard disks should be pretty good.  Long term storage on cheap USB flash devices is probably a bad idea.  I don&#8217;t know of any good research on this matter, but I have noticed that on a quiet day at your local electronics store you can ask the staff which brands of USB device tend to be returned and which don&#8217;t.  With some brands it seems common for them to lose data before the customer loses the receipt.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Simmons</title>
		<link>http://etbe.coker.com.au/2008/11/26/flash-storage-and-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-16965</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Simmons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 22:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://etbe.coker.com.au/?p=948#comment-16965</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve got an array of backup drives ( see this post for details: http://standalone-sysadmin.blogspot.com/2008/05/backup-scheme.html ) attached to a server for short-term point-in-time recovery. I&#039;d be interested in hearing about anything you&#039;ve seen regarding long-term USB storage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve got an array of backup drives ( see this post for details: <a href="http://standalone-sysadmin.blogspot.com/2008/05/backup-scheme.html" rel="nofollow">http://standalone-sysadmin.blogspot.com/2008/05/backup-scheme.html</a> ) attached to a server for short-term point-in-time recovery. I&#8217;d be interested in hearing about anything you&#8217;ve seen regarding long-term USB storage.</p>
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		<title>By: pants</title>
		<link>http://etbe.coker.com.au/2008/11/26/flash-storage-and-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-16964</link>
		<dc:creator>pants</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:54:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://etbe.coker.com.au/?p=948#comment-16964</guid>
		<description>the internal usb connector is for VMware esxi, the OS image for vmware is roughly 30-60mb, and is intergrated into a lot of servers from hp/dell and i think IBM.  i don&#039;t think nearline storage as flash is very useful for servers hosting an OS like windows. It is much easier and safer to use raided disks in a physical server. how would you deal with RAID using flash? it would introduce a single point of failure that would be a no no for server builds. In a VMware environment it would not matter as the machines will auto failover to a new host if one went down due to a problem with flash.

there is still too short a lifespan for flash to be reliable enough to use as primary OS storage too.

plus, its better to use iscsi or a SAN to provide storage to servers these days. i think its time to move away from internal storage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the internal usb connector is for VMware esxi, the OS image for vmware is roughly 30-60mb, and is intergrated into a lot of servers from hp/dell and i think IBM.  i don&#8217;t think nearline storage as flash is very useful for servers hosting an OS like windows. It is much easier and safer to use raided disks in a physical server. how would you deal with RAID using flash? it would introduce a single point of failure that would be a no no for server builds. In a VMware environment it would not matter as the machines will auto failover to a new host if one went down due to a problem with flash.</p>
<p>there is still too short a lifespan for flash to be reliable enough to use as primary OS storage too.</p>
<p>plus, its better to use iscsi or a SAN to provide storage to servers these days. i think its time to move away from internal storage.</p>
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		<title>By: Les</title>
		<link>http://etbe.coker.com.au/2008/11/26/flash-storage-and-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-16958</link>
		<dc:creator>Les</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 18:46:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don&#039;t think there is much harm to just labeling the USB Flash and leaving it connected to the rear of the machine at all times. If possible, try and set up a network bootable approach and have a USB Flash and CD-RW/CD-R as alternates. Then any internal drives are used purely as storage spools and you have a fairly reliable, and manageable system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think there is much harm to just labeling the USB Flash and leaving it connected to the rear of the machine at all times. If possible, try and set up a network bootable approach and have a USB Flash and CD-RW/CD-R as alternates. Then any internal drives are used purely as storage spools and you have a fairly reliable, and manageable system.</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond</title>
		<link>http://etbe.coker.com.au/2008/11/26/flash-storage-and-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-16955</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 18:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://etbe.coker.com.au/?p=948#comment-16955</guid>
		<description>We&#039;ve just received two Dell R805 servers with ESXi installed via an on-board SD card. There are to SD slots on a PCI riser, and I imagine you could install any OS on an appropriately-sized card.

I don&#039;t know if the standard build includes the PCI riser with SD slots, but it would only take a quick call to Dell to confirm. I&#039;m unable to recall the cost of having ESXi pre-installed; however, it was not very much as ESXi is now free. Worst-case scenario, you could order it with ESXi &amp; then install the OS of your choosing on the SD card.

Regarding power and cooling, the boxes seem to run very cool &amp; quiet, but we&#039;ve not put them under great load yet. They are AMD-based &amp; don&#039;t use FB-DIMMs, so they are less power-hungry than Intel-based systems (in my experience).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve just received two Dell R805 servers with ESXi installed via an on-board SD card. There are to SD slots on a PCI riser, and I imagine you could install any OS on an appropriately-sized card.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if the standard build includes the PCI riser with SD slots, but it would only take a quick call to Dell to confirm. I&#8217;m unable to recall the cost of having ESXi pre-installed; however, it was not very much as ESXi is now free. Worst-case scenario, you could order it with ESXi &amp; then install the OS of your choosing on the SD card.</p>
<p>Regarding power and cooling, the boxes seem to run very cool &amp; quiet, but we&#8217;ve not put them under great load yet. They are AMD-based &amp; don&#8217;t use FB-DIMMs, so they are less power-hungry than Intel-based systems (in my experience).</p>
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		<title>By: Jake Peters</title>
		<link>http://etbe.coker.com.au/2008/11/26/flash-storage-and-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-16951</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake Peters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://etbe.coker.com.au/?p=948#comment-16951</guid>
		<description>I am not sure I understand the context of your requirements.

But, if the server is not storage constrained (that is, you have a free SATA port), why not consider a SATA DOM (disk on module)?  Search for Sata DOM or SATADOM.  

I have seen 4GB for $100-250, but I am not sure what causes the price range.

Cheers,

JP</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not sure I understand the context of your requirements.</p>
<p>But, if the server is not storage constrained (that is, you have a free SATA port), why not consider a SATA DOM (disk on module)?  Search for Sata DOM or SATADOM.  </p>
<p>I have seen 4GB for $100-250, but I am not sure what causes the price range.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>JP</p>
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