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	<title>Comments on: school rating</title>
	<atom:link href="http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/05/04/school-rating/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/05/04/school-rating/</link>
	<description>Linux, politics, and other interesting things</description>
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		<title>By: etbe</title>
		<link>http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/05/04/school-rating/comment-page-1/#comment-123</link>
		<dc:creator>etbe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 02:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/05/04/school-rating/#comment-123</guid>
		<description>Adrian, I think that a reasonable assessment of student attitudes could weed out the teachers that allow everyone to pass.  There are few things that make a hard working student more angry than seeing students who don&#039;t work pass!

Raymond, I agree that the current system of anonymous feedback is not ideal.  But it&#039;s the best that is available.  If they create something better then I&#039;m sure that the interest in anonymous feedback will dramatically decrease.

David, the fact that some students will give unfair assessment of teachers is no reason to deny all students a voice.  An analogy is the fact that criminals will often falsely complain about treatment by police.  Should we consider that everyone who complains about police action is a criminal and disregard their complaints?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adrian, I think that a reasonable assessment of student attitudes could weed out the teachers that allow everyone to pass.  There are few things that make a hard working student more angry than seeing students who don&#8217;t work pass!</p>
<p>Raymond, I agree that the current system of anonymous feedback is not ideal.  But it&#8217;s the best that is available.  If they create something better then I&#8217;m sure that the interest in anonymous feedback will dramatically decrease.</p>
<p>David, the fact that some students will give unfair assessment of teachers is no reason to deny all students a voice.  An analogy is the fact that criminals will often falsely complain about treatment by police.  Should we consider that everyone who complains about police action is a criminal and disregard their complaints?</p>
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		<title>By: David Adam</title>
		<link>http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/05/04/school-rating/comment-page-1/#comment-120</link>
		<dc:creator>David Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 15:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/05/04/school-rating/#comment-120</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately, student rating of teaching suffers from fundamental problems both on the administrative side (e.g. ratings change wildly before and after examinations and results, and designing the survey is REALLY hard for most administrators, despite what they think) and the conceptual side. It assumes that students are mature, intelligent, fair and insightful. This is almost never the case.

Here is a humorous look at the problem: http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?%20id=6fnxs4gx7j6qr4v7qn567y5hb52ywb33

Finally, with regard to high school students, it&#039;s worth pointing out that there are teachers leaving the WA private and public education systems because of incidents with student discipline where student rights are placed above all else. There is very little advocacy for teachers in the system these days, and a reliance on student ratings pushes dangerously further in that direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, student rating of teaching suffers from fundamental problems both on the administrative side (e.g. ratings change wildly before and after examinations and results, and designing the survey is REALLY hard for most administrators, despite what they think) and the conceptual side. It assumes that students are mature, intelligent, fair and insightful. This is almost never the case.</p>
<p>Here is a humorous look at the problem: <a href="http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?%20id=6fnxs4gx7j6qr4v7qn567y5hb52ywb33" rel="nofollow">http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?%20id=6fnxs4gx7j6qr4v7qn567y5hb52ywb33</a></p>
<p>Finally, with regard to high school students, it&#8217;s worth pointing out that there are teachers leaving the WA private and public education systems because of incidents with student discipline where student rights are placed above all else. There is very little advocacy for teachers in the system these days, and a reliance on student ratings pushes dangerously further in that direction.</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond</title>
		<link>http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/05/04/school-rating/comment-page-1/#comment-118</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 01:23:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/05/04/school-rating/#comment-118</guid>
		<description>We do have quality of teaching at universities but not in schools. University students are at a better level to take them seriously.

I think it&#039;s a good idea to have student feedback because people learn better from teachers they like, at least I know I did. However this should be taken with a grain of salt because an *anonymous* student could put in several postings about how much they hate a teacher. Doing that over a period of time it can easily look like several classes.

Should a single student make a whole school look bad because they don&#039;t want to be educated? I think students&#039; opinions are good but need to be weighted accordingly.

Also, that article from Mentone doesn&#039;t tell you whether it&#039;s more to do with the teachers, the student or the parents. If this student didn&#039;t want to learn and was hiding it from the father it could come out this way very easily.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We do have quality of teaching at universities but not in schools. University students are at a better level to take them seriously.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s a good idea to have student feedback because people learn better from teachers they like, at least I know I did. However this should be taken with a grain of salt because an *anonymous* student could put in several postings about how much they hate a teacher. Doing that over a period of time it can easily look like several classes.</p>
<p>Should a single student make a whole school look bad because they don&#8217;t want to be educated? I think students&#8217; opinions are good but need to be weighted accordingly.</p>
<p>Also, that article from Mentone doesn&#8217;t tell you whether it&#8217;s more to do with the teachers, the student or the parents. If this student didn&#8217;t want to learn and was hiding it from the father it could come out this way very easily.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian Bunk</title>
		<link>http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/05/04/school-rating/comment-page-1/#comment-116</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian Bunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 14:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/05/04/school-rating/#comment-116</guid>
		<description>&quot;The solution to this however is really quite simple. There needs to be a formal method for students to rate their teachers which will be used when it comes time to give pay rises to good teachers and dismiss or transfer to non-teaching duties the teachers who can’t do their job.&quot;

At first glance, this sounds great.

But there&#039;s one problem with this suggestion:

In real life, a metric is almost never able to cover everything, and people tend to work on improving the metric, no matter whether it makes sense within the greater picture.

So if the wages or even the job of a teacher depend on the metric &quot;rated good by students&quot; what will be the effects?

There are problems like students rating teachers giving good marks better that might result in all teachers giving all students relatively good marks and leeting no student ever fall any exam.

That in turn might result in students doing less work because they anyway get good marks and never fall at any exam, resulting in a lower overall education level.

I&#039;m not saying rating of teachers generally was a bad thing, but as soon as there are formal or informal consequences of bad ratings, you must consider both the possible positive and the possible negative effects of these ratings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The solution to this however is really quite simple. There needs to be a formal method for students to rate their teachers which will be used when it comes time to give pay rises to good teachers and dismiss or transfer to non-teaching duties the teachers who can’t do their job.&#8221;</p>
<p>At first glance, this sounds great.</p>
<p>But there&#8217;s one problem with this suggestion:</p>
<p>In real life, a metric is almost never able to cover everything, and people tend to work on improving the metric, no matter whether it makes sense within the greater picture.</p>
<p>So if the wages or even the job of a teacher depend on the metric &#8220;rated good by students&#8221; what will be the effects?</p>
<p>There are problems like students rating teachers giving good marks better that might result in all teachers giving all students relatively good marks and leeting no student ever fall any exam.</p>
<p>That in turn might result in students doing less work because they anyway get good marks and never fall at any exam, resulting in a lower overall education level.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying rating of teachers generally was a bad thing, but as soon as there are formal or informal consequences of bad ratings, you must consider both the possible positive and the possible negative effects of these ratings.</p>
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		<title>By: etbe</title>
		<link>http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/05/04/school-rating/comment-page-1/#comment-115</link>
		<dc:creator>etbe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 12:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/05/04/school-rating/#comment-115</guid>
		<description>Joseph: That sounds great.  I recall something similar when I was at university but it wasn&#039;t taken so seriously.  But at university level there are generally fewer problems so it&#039;s not a big deal.

The ratemyteacher.com site is about high-schools, and there is more need for feedback in that area.  University students know their rights and are able to persue civil or criminal cases against professors who treat them badly.  High-school students have little ability to defend themselves and now at the first time that they get an opportunity to air their grievances the teachers want to tromp on their rights.

I take your comments as support for my points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph: That sounds great.  I recall something similar when I was at university but it wasn&#8217;t taken so seriously.  But at university level there are generally fewer problems so it&#8217;s not a big deal.</p>
<p>The ratemyteacher.com site is about high-schools, and there is more need for feedback in that area.  University students know their rights and are able to persue civil or criminal cases against professors who treat them badly.  High-school students have little ability to defend themselves and now at the first time that they get an opportunity to air their grievances the teachers want to tromp on their rights.</p>
<p>I take your comments as support for my points.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/05/04/school-rating/comment-page-1/#comment-114</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 12:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/05/04/school-rating/#comment-114</guid>
		<description>oh, I should mention that the professor/TA does not get to see the results until after the semester is long over and grades are finalized, to encourage honest feedback and prevent any retaliatory abuse of grades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oh, I should mention that the professor/TA does not get to see the results until after the semester is long over and grades are finalized, to encourage honest feedback and prevent any retaliatory abuse of grades.</p>
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